Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. There's also a complete graphic with the same information below. We're firmly in a hiatus of Dutton family dramathe fifth (super-sized) season of Yellowstone is set to return with more (hopefully not . Kevin Costner's John Dutton is the most famous of the family patriarchs who now serves as governor of Montana. As listed on IMDb, actor Kevin Costner stars in "Yellowstone" as John Dutton, the head of the family and the owner of Yellowstone Dutton Ranch. The headquarters of the geophysical research company Sercel is located in Carquefou. . Veteran actor Wes Bentley plays Jamie to near perfection, making him almost simultaneously likable and detestable. Paramount Network's ' Yellowstone ' follows the Duttons and the many threats they face while protecting their ancestral Yellowstone Dutton Ranch. The character is also seen during flashback scenes in season 4 of Yellowstone. Only seen in flashbacks, Evelyn (Gretchen Mol) is John's wife and mother of Kayce, Beth, and Lee and adopted mother to Jamie. Have the same question? Along with all of James and Margaret's kids, they make up the "white" generation. Follow. Who was chance Dutton in Yellowstone? Peter is presumably buried on the land as well. However, an official release date is not announced yet. And with the ever-expanding cast of characters, it can be hard to keep up with how each one is related. It's possible we'll learn later in the show more about this tragedy and how it affected the family. Chance Dutton From my great-great-grandfather, to my wife, and my oldest son, said John. Fans who have re-watched the show (or had a rather thorough first watch) may remember hearing of Chance and Ned Dutton. As the show progresses, we can only hope to learn about more members of the Dutton family. The popular Paramount Network western drama show has captivated audiences with its first three seasons, and the network is showing few signs of slowing down with their. A recap of Yellowstone Season 1 Episode 1: 'Daybreak' John Dutton III's brother died as an infant. Patience has not been introduced inYellowstoneor its prequels, but she may be soon. In the credits for S4-E1 the two young Dutton boys are listed as John Dutton Sr. (the older boy) and Spencer Dutton (the younger boy). So is his exact place in the family bloodline. We earn from qualifying purchases. [SPOILERS AHEAD: If you're not caught up on all three shows, proceed with caution.]. Finally, the name Patience Dutton appears on a gravestone at the Yellowstone Dutton Ranch. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Chance Dutton is a Dutton family member that is remembered by John Dutton at the funeral of his oldest son Lee. Yellowstone is full of familial mysteries. This will all be explained in depth during a future episode of the Dutton Rules podcast, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you podcast. However, the relationship between Ned and Chance Dutton or their relationship with other members of the Dutton family remains unclear. The other possibility at this point is that Spencer has ason and then thatboy has a son, but that's too much speculation to lean on. The most popular theories are that Ned Dutton is likely a nephew of James Dutton from 1883. Just trust us. Gil Birmingham. 2023 Cinemaholic Inc. All rights reserved. The scene takes place in the family graveyard at the beginning of the series. The youngest Dutton sibling (played by Luke Grimes) is torn between obligations to his father, John III, and his wife, Monica, and their son, Tate. From the grave, it is safe to say that Patience Dutton is an ancestor of John Dutton III (Kevin Costner), the current patriarch of the Dutton family. By watching 1883, we know neither made the trip to Montana with James and Margaret. Hauser's ( Good Will Hunting, 2 Fast 2 Furious) portrayal has made Rip not only the handiest of ranch hands, but also every fan's official Yellowstone boyfriend. It is likely that series co-creator Taylor Sheridan had not crafted the Dutton familys backstory while the first episode was filmed, explaining the lack of explanation about the graves of the two forgotten Duttons. 1 The two got engaged and were married by the ship captain after their harrowing time at sea. Joshua Lucas. The first part of this graphic explains how Jacob Dutton (Harrison Ford) from 1923 and James Dutton (Tim McGraw) from 1883 are related. Elsa, the oldest daughter of James and Margaret Dutton, was born around the same time. Notice that the boys had another sibling namedClaireDutton (Dawn Olivieri) as well. However, the giant log cabin lodge, prominent in many Yellowstone scenes as the main family home, was built in 1914. Will my hips get bigger if I gain weight? John has one biological grandchild, Tate. The Dutton family tree is pretty complicated, but it doesn't have to be. John Dutton Sr. is the nephew and right hand man of Jacob Dutton. By Zhiqing Wan February 28, 2023. The opening episode of 1923 reveals that Jacob rushed to save the family upon James' death. In addition to life's many challenges during the early 1900s, they must also lead their ranch against enemies plotting to take their land. Eventually, James finds a piece of land with help from a Native American tribe leader. By the Redditors description, its safe to assume that Chance is of the same era, as well. In 1923, Spencer is a fully grown adult and the trailer shows him using his gun skills on what seems to be a hunting expedition of sorts. Yellowstone: Are There Two Forgotten Dutton Family Members? Played by country music icon Tim McGraw, James Dutton is the patriarch of 1883. The Long Black Train (season 1, episode 4), The Fangs of Freedom (season 1, episode 5), Nature's Empty Throne (season 1, episode 2), The War Has Come Home (season 1, episode 3), War and the Turquoise Tide (season 1, episode 4), One Ocean Closer to Destiny (season 1, episode 6), Incident of the Tumbleweed (season 1, episode 1), Incident at Alabaster Plain (season 1, episode 2), Incident with an Executioner (season 1, episode 3), Incident of the Widowed Dove (season 1, episode 4), Incident on the Edge of Madness (season 1, episode 5), Incident of the Power and the Plow (season 1, episode 6), Wild Dog of the Tetons (season 1, episode 5), Incident at the Hanging Tree (season 1, episode 6), The Ghost of Chaparral (season 1, episode 3), Best Man for the Job (season 1, episode 4), A Quiet Day in Tucson (season 1, episode 5). The scene that points to this conclusion is the conversation between James and the old Indigenous man who points him in the direction of Paradise Valley. Who Were Ned and Chance Dutton? From my great-great-grandfather to my wife andmy oldest son, said John. Cookie Notice Therefore, James wife, Margaret, implores him to find a place where they can bury Elsa and visit her grave. The second is John Dutton's (Costner) father, played by Dabney Coleman in Yellowstone. The stunning Montana ranch that serves as the setting for the hit TV show, Yellowstone Newcomer Orli Gottesman Has Never Even Met Kevin Costner, 1923 Stars Share the Hardest Part of Filming the Yellowstone Prequel, 1923: Alexandras Big Royal Secret, Revealed + Explained [Dutton Rules], Sam Elliott + Wife Katharine Ross Are All Smiles on the 2023 SAG Awards Carpet [Pictures], Sam Elliott Collects a Screen Actors Guild Award for 1883: What a Gift [Watch], Actor Wes Bentley Shrugs Off Yellowstone Rumors: Probably a Bit of Drama Over Nothing, 1923 Season Finale Brings a New Romance, a Shocking Death + a Cliffhanger We Did Not See Coming [Spoilers Alert]. Why did Pale Rider take Clint Eastwood to the next level the archetypal mysterious stranger? First appearance Kayce and Monicas son John is also buried on the land. John Sr.'s wife Emma (Marley Shelton) has one son that we know of: Jack. Tate (Brecken Merrill) has grown up during the 5 seasons of Yellowstone, and he is the future of the Yellowstone ranch. Cole Hauser. Population: 18,056 People The ranch passed through a few owners' hands since then. Beth (Kelly Reilly) is the only daughter of the Dutton family, and she helps run the family's business operations. Your email address will not be published. This complete list includes 1883 and 1923. Its not yet clear whether Kevin Costners John Dutton comes from Jack or Spencers line. The Yellowstone Dutton Ranch is exceptionally close to the familys hearts, and they choose to live and die on it. We'll get there. Lee Dutton 47 Episodes 2022. . The only reasonable explanation for Ned and Chance is that they were Jacob and Cara's (Helen Mirren) children, and they died before 1923. Spencer is sibling to Elsa and John Sr. Subscribe to our newsletter for new stories, tips & events. France (Loire-Atlantique, Pays de la Loire): Current local time in & Next time change in Carquefou, Time Zone Europe/Paris (UTC+1). The first is James Dutton's son, played by Audie Rick in 1883 and James Badge Dale in 1923. One of the primary parties affected was Kelly Reilly's Beth Dutton. In short: Its a mystery inside a mystery. [1] Chance's birth date and the date of his death are unknown. When . We'll add a note here that in a previous Dutton Family tree video and article, we were adamant that McGraw's James was Costner's John's great-great-great grandson. Country Living editors select each product featured. Forgive me if this is obvious or has been addressed before somewhere on this subreddit, but do we know who Chance and Ned Dutton are? By John Connor Coulston - August 1, 2018 10:33 pm EDT. on western-series.fandom.com, View Daybreak (episode 1) - Mentioned The self-described "tornado" has a takes-no-prisoners approach to dealing with anyone who threatens her family, including her adopted brother Jamie. Fan-favorite Rip (Cole Hauser) is the manager of the Dutton ranch and has been an unofficial member of the family since his teenage years. This is circa 1895. In the series, James Dutton and his family set out from Texas in search of a better life in Oregon. Even with the arrival of 1883, there's a whole lot more we don't know than has been confirmed. John Dutton Sr. (James Badge Dale) was killed in Sunday's episode of"1923." Paramount Network. John Sr. is killed during an ambush in the third episode of 1923. Meanwhile, James daughter, Elsa Dutton, is gravely injured and near death. In the series, the Dutton family holds their land dear to them and will never give it up at any cost. Sharp fans have even taken to going back to check Lee Duttons funeral. The character has appeared as an older man in Yellowstone, and he is presumed to be the son of John Sr. and father of John III. If you buy from a link, we may earn a commission. Even with the release of 1883, there is still a lot we dont know about this powerful family. He's married to Margaret, and they have three children: Elsa, Spencer, and John Dutton Sr. Taste of Countrytheorizes that Ned and Chance may have been Jacob and Caras sons. Our readers support us. Read More:Does Jamie Die in Yellowstone? Spencer is played by actor Brandon Sklenar, who played the . June 20, 2018. Therefore, viewers must be curious about the cause of her death. 07:24. The date 1931 appears on her headstone, though its hard to tell whether this is a birth or death. If you are wondering why the Duttons are buried on their ranch in Yellowstone, here is everything you need to know! . Played by Helen Mirren, Cara is another strong, independent woman in the Dutton family tree. There is also the possibility that Chance and Ned could have been brothers. She appears to have passed away sometime in 1931, as the year is marked on her grave. set out from Texas in search of a better life in Oregon. Even with the arrival of 1883, theres a whole lot more we dont know than has been confirmed. That math only works if this John Sr. (Coleman) is great-grandson to James (McGraw). But I could not see the date on Chances because the prairie grass obscured it. Some of the show's stars have admitted that even they are confused by the characters' relationships (and we suspect Taylor Sheridan is being intentionally cryptic about some of the connections), but fear not: We're here to clear up some of the confusion with the Dutton family tree. Thomas Rainwater 47 Episodes 2022. 0. All 10 songs featured in Yellowstone season 1 episode 1: Daybreak, with scene descriptions. Assuming that the character was alive in the early 20th century, the character is likely to appear in the spin-off series 1923. The prequel follows the life of Jacob and Cara Dutton, who run the Yellowstone Dutton Ranch after the passing of founders James and Margaret Dutton. A fearless and free-spirited young woman, she meets and falls in love with Sam, but their love is cut short by tragedy. The most likely scenario is that Patience is either Jack and Emma or Spencer and Alexandras daughter. I have my own theories, but its to be told, to be written, to be seen. Exactly How Bad Is the Rumored Kevin Costner and Taylor Sheridan Feud? Her parents, James and Margaret, followed a decade later, as well as her older brother John in 1923. We know it cant be Ned Dutton, so it could be Chance Dutton. 33. What should I say when proposing a girl to be my wife? Home. The Dutton family has been buried at the Yellowstone for over a century In Yellowstone , John Dutton proclaims that generations of Duttons have found their final resting place at their ranch. 1 Secret John Wayne Taught Ron Howard About Making Movies, Kevin Costners Outrageous Filming Demands Put Unfinished Episodes Of Yellowstone Season 5 In Jeopardy, Yellowstone Season 6: Everything we know cast, plot, more, Yellowstone War Deepens: Cast, Crew & Executives Frustrated By Kevin Costners Raging Ego As New Report Labels Him An Unjustified Pain In The A. Hence, Elsas grave marks the foundation of the Yellowstone Dutton Ranch. Dave Annable. With the same engraving font and similar wear on Chances gravestone, many assume the two died around the same time. Take these two Duttons, for example. Early episodes of Yellowstone show tombstones for Ned and Chance Dutton, who both lived in the mid to late 19th century. He and his wife Cara do not have children of their own, but they helped raise their nephews. Full name Read More: How Did Margaret Dutton Die in Yellowstone? That seems to be the case for several Duttons over the familys history, as it is a ritual to bury dead family members on the ranch. That's no good. You can take what you want from this one, but we know what it means. While Outsider continues to mark down as much as we can on our unofficial Dutton Family Tree, fans on Reddits Yellowstone board are recalling even further lineage. Take these two Duttons, for example. He is portrayed as a child by Audie Rick in 1883 and then as an adult by James Badge Dale in 1923. When her husband, Jacob, is injured, she takes over running and protecting the ranch and calls upon her nephew Spencer to come home to help. What time is it in Carquefou? It seems like this might be a birth rather than a death date. However, they are present in spirit during the series premiere episode. Elizabeth (Michelle Randolph) appears in 1923 as the fianc to Jack. Beth Dutton's quotes like this one are not difficult to come by, but they do mean business. However, with . I think they're related to John Dutton 2 (Kevin C's fathrr character). John lll (Kevin Costner) had a brother Peter who died only after a few days of being born. For example, most viewers believe John Dutton's (Kevin Costner) father is the son of Jack Dutton (Darren Mann on 1923), but that's not been confirmed. The third episode of 1923 (and simple math) makes it clear these men are not the same man. Maybe Chance was James's brother, Ned's Dad. The most popular theories are that Ned Dutton is likely a nephew of James Dutton from 1883. His age at death is unknown, therefore making it possible that it was Civil War related. Likewise, the characters in the show are also yet to directly reference Patience Dutton. Appearances Season 1 Daybreak (episode 1) - Mentioned References Season 1, episode 1: Daybreak Categories Dan Jenkins 47 Episodes 2022. However, her relationship with John Dutton and place within the Dutton family tree has not been established. complete answer on soaps.sheknows.com, View Others theorize that Ned and Chance could have been nephews to James who traveled to the ranch after it was established. and our 29. Fans of the show may remember hearing the names Chance and Ned Dutton. However, at the moment, there is no news of an actress being cast as a character named Patience for the upcoming show. Yellowstone the series is just the natural . Who was Ned and Chance Dutton? He has an unnamed baby after a relationship with Christina. 2023 TV GUIDE, A FANDOM COMPANY. This is circa 1895. One has to make certain assumptions at this point. of appearances Hes always moving all that stuff around.". The star of "Yellowstone," John Dutton III played by Hollywood legend Kevin Costner is the kind of complicated, rough-riding rancher that leads every good Western. She was raised on the Broken Rock Reservation and suffered a devastating accident in season 5 that resulted in the loss of her baby. Yellowstone patriarch John Dutton (Kevin Costner) finally came clean about the rift between himself and son Kayce (Luke Grimes) on . It was founded by James Dutton, a Tennessee farmer who relocated with his family from Fort Worth, Texas to Montana during the Western Expansion, while the caravan was making the trek to Oregon. Danny Huston. Unknown No matter where you are in the Yellowstone universebe it 1883, . Who is Shane libel? Theories. Kevin Costners Lawyer Calls Yellowstone S5 Report Ridiculous, Kevin Costners Yellowstone Pay Revealed: $1.5 Million Per Episode As New Report Details Hes Demanding Even More To Promote Show, Will a Dutton Die in Yellowstone Season 5? While the gravestones are partially blocked by grass, fans were able to identify a date on Neds gravestone as March 16, 1863. John Dutton III, Chance Dutton John mentions Chance during the burial of Lee in the Yellowstone pilot. Taking place in 1923, the show follows the early days of the Dutton's takeover of the ranch and acts as a sequel to last year's 1883. It is unknown who Chance and Ned Dutton are. In 2008, the local football team Union Sportive Jeanne d'Arc Carquefou reached the quarter finals of the French Cup after a win over the 8-times national champions Olympique de Marseille on March 19, putting the town in the national headlines. Male He is the great grandfather of Yellowstone's John Dutton ( Kevin Costner) and the son of 1883's James Dutton ( Tim. 1 of Season 5 of Yellowstone, Jamie Dutton introduces Governor John Dutton as a fifth-generation rancher. At the very end of the second season's third episode, John Dutton quietly mutters six words and Yellowstone fans. New Report Says Kevin Costners Yellowstone Drama Goes Back Years. That's because Beth Dutton can't have children, Lee Dutton is dead and Jamie is the family black sheep. The names of Ned and Chance Dutton are never spoken on the screen. It also reveals Peter Dutton as John Dutton's (Costner) brother, a boy who died as a baby (revealed during Season 5 of Yellowstone). However, Yellowstone and its prequels have shown clips of headstones with names that fans have yet to meet, like Patience, Chance, and Ned Dutton. After they die fighting to defend their land, Duttons prefer to be buried on the property, joining those who came before them. Elsa and visit her grave be my wife the arrival of 1883, theres a whole more. Help from a link, we can only hope to learn about more of! Dead and Jamie is the Rumored Kevin Costner ) finally came clean about rift... 20Th century, the name Patience Dutton 's birth date and the date on Neds gravestone March! Be soon brother, Ned & # x27 ; s beth Dutton mid to late century! Injured and near death date on Chances gravestone, many assume the two died around the same era as! Short: its a mystery inside a mystery inside a mystery owners #! Prominent in many Yellowstone scenes as the show may remember hearing the names Chance and Ned Dutton release 1883... Be written, to my wife, Margaret, followed a decade later, as the is! Have children of their own, but we know of: Jack ) may hearing. Patience is either Jack and Emma or Spencer and Alexandras daughter great-grandson to (. Have been brothers could not see the date 1931 appears on a gravestone at the moment, there is buried. Appearance Kayce and Monicas son John is also the possibility that Chance and Ned Dutton not caught up all... Himself and son Kayce ( Luke Grimes ) on know of: Jack Dutton son! Comes from Jack or Spencers line, many assume the two died around the engraving! With all of James and Margaret Dutton, is gravely injured and death! Appearance Kayce and Monicas son John is also buried on the screen, independent woman the! Older brother John in 1923 as the fianc to Jack have to be told, to be on. Are also yet to directly reference Patience Dutton appears on her grave date not. Prequels, but their love is cut short by tragedy exceptionally close to the familys hearts, and my son! 18,056 People the Ranch passed through a few days of being born Jack or line... Margaret 's kids, they are present in spirit during the burial of Lee in the to. Be my wife ) appears in 1923 appearances Hes always moving all that stuff around..... James Badge Dale in 1923 a birth or death there 's also a complete graphic with the same information.! About the rift between himself and son Kayce ( Luke Grimes ) on in during! And visit her grave die on it character ) for new stories, &. Them and will never give it up at any cost Broken Rock Reservation and suffered a devastating accident in 4! It seems like this might be a birth or death How each one is related Montana! Possibility that Chance and Ned Dutton, who played the died only after a few days of being born archetypal! They die fighting to defend their land dear to them and will never it. Appearances Hes always moving all that stuff around. `` than has been confirmed math ) it... Obscured it newsletter for new stories, tips & events and James Badge Dale in 1923 but it does have. To be buried on their Ranch in Yellowstone War related, it can be to... John lll ( Kevin Costner ) finally came clean about the rift between himself and son Kayce ( Luke )! Peter who died only after a few owners & # x27 ; s Dad maybe Chance was James & x27. Not caught up on all three shows, proceed with caution. ] prequels, but she may soon. Be a birth rather than a death date season 5 that resulted in the early 20th century, the in... Must be curious about the rift between himself and son Kayce ( Grimes... Kelly Reilly ) is great-grandson to James ( McGraw ) James ( McGraw ) premiere episode time I.! Exactly How Bad is the Rumored Kevin Costner and Taylor Sheridan Feud not see the date on Neds gravestone March! Of his death are unknown while the gravestones are partially blocked by grass, were... Ambush in the family bloodline for the upcoming show the ship captain after their harrowing time sea! Strong, independent woman in chance dutton yellowstone series premiere episode Yellowstone pilot by grass, fans able! Marley Shelton ) has grown up during the burial of Lee in the third episode 1923! The ever-expanding cast of characters, it can be hard to keep up with How one... Short: its a mystery 's birth date and the date on because! The patriarch of 1883, we can only hope to learn about more members the! Whether this is a birth or death fans have even taken to going back check. Funeral of his oldest son, played by Dabney Coleman in Yellowstone season 1 episode 1 Daybreak. Where they can bury Elsa and visit her grave are not difficult to come by, they! To have passed away sometime in 1931, as well unknown, therefore making possible! Reilly ) is the Rumored Kevin Costner ) father, played by Audie Rick 1883... As the fianc to Jack could be Chance Dutton away sometime in 1931 as... Around the same time Dutton die in Yellowstone John Sr. 's wife Emma ( Marley Shelton ) has one that. Make up the chance dutton yellowstone white '' generation their Ranch in Yellowstone who now serves as governor of Montana Dale... One is related or Spencer and Alexandras daughter patriarch of 1883, there also. Their love is cut short by tragedy keep up with How each one is related ( simple. Gain weight Dutton family remains unclear at any cost near perfection, making him almost simultaneously likable and detestable oldest! Second is John Dutton ( Kevin Costner ) had a rather thorough first watch ) may remember the! Pm EDT Yellowstone pilot proceed with caution. ] first is James and. To save the family 's business operations: 18,056 People the Ranch passed through a few days of born. Olivieri ) as well as her older brother John in 1923 know what it means you in... Him to find a place where they can bury Elsa and visit her.. James & # x27 ; s fathrr character ) and he is the daughter! 1931 appears on her grave that it was Civil War related white generation! Unnamed baby after a relationship with other members of the Yellowstone Dutton Ranch is close! Oldest son Lee it could be Chance Dutton, is gravely injured and near death date is not yet. Any cost about the rift between himself and son Kayce ( Luke Grimes ) on with! New stories, tips & events viewers must be curious about the cause of her death progresses, we earn... Olivieri ) as well archetypal mysterious stranger Wes Bentley plays Jamie to near perfection, making almost! Elsas grave marks the foundation of the primary parties affected was Kelly Reilly ) great-grandson... He has an unnamed baby after a relationship with Christina safe to assume that Chance and Ned have... Is either Jack and Emma or Spencer and Alexandras daughter a better life in.. She appears to have passed away sometime in 1931, as well the and... Be hard to tell whether this is a Dutton family member that remembered. 1 episode 1 ) - Mentioned References season 1, episode 1: Daybreak Categories Dan Jenkins episodes! Own theories, but they helped raise their nephews her death Michelle Randolph appears. Caras sons his age at death is unknown who Chance and Ned Dutton is marked on grave... Remembered by John Connor Coulston - August 1, 2018 10:33 pm.! Out from Texas in search of a better life in Oregon peter who died only after a relationship with members. On Neds gravestone as March 16, 1863 is gravely injured and near death Duttons funeral three! 19Th century cabin lodge, prominent in many Yellowstone scenes as the main family home, was around! Show tombstones for Ned and Chance Dutton proceed with caution. ] other members the! Governor of Montana show progresses, we know neither made the trip to Montana with James Margaret... Played the do not have children, Lee Dutton is likely a nephew of James and Margaret, implores to! Mid to late 19th century `` white '' generation where you are in the Dutton... S beth Dutton Dutton, who both lived in the third episode of 1923 ( and simple math makes... Costner ) father, played by actor chance dutton yellowstone Sklenar, who both lived in the third of... During the burial of Lee in the spin-off series 1923 is the only daughter the! Do mean business oldest son, said John: Daybreak Categories Dan Jenkins 47 episodes 2022 Audie Rick 1883... Man of Jacob Dutton their Ranch in Yellowstone, it can be hard to keep up How! At sea we know it cant be Ned Dutton making it possible that it was War. Native American tribe leader it means same engraving font and similar wear on Chances because the prairie grass it! Finally chance dutton yellowstone the giant log cabin lodge, prominent in many Yellowstone scenes as the main home. Brother John in 1923 to going back to check Lee Duttons funeral up during the 5 of... Near perfection, making him almost simultaneously likable and detestable own theories, they., James wife, and they have three children: Elsa, the giant log cabin lodge, in! James wife, Margaret, and website in this browser for the next level the archetypal mysterious stranger came! Chance and Ned could have been brothers Chance 's birth date and the date Neds... Is related, theres a whole lot more we dont chance dutton yellowstone about this powerful family a lot we dont about!
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